Crafting Viral Content & Pitches That Sell with Writer & Editor Amanda Lien – Podcast Transcript

Episode 59 – Pitchin’ and Sippin’ – Crafting Viral Content & Pitches That Sell with Writer & Editor Amanda Lien

Lexie Smith 

I am part of an incredible community called dreamers and doers, which was founded by Gesche Haas, a former guest on this show from season two episode 34. And it was through the DND online community that I came across Amanda specifically. I saw her introduction posts and was immediately captivated and I knew I had to reach out so I did and you all will soon find out why. But first, Amanda, welcome to the show. Before we dive in, I’d love to know where your home base is and what do you like to do outside of work for fun?

 

Amanda Lien 

Well, hey, thank you so much for having me. I’m very excited to get to chat with you and hopefully impart something of substance to your audience. i It’s actually funny you asked that question. As of this recording, I’m currently preparing for a move down the east coast from Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, where I’ve lived for the past five years to Southern Virginia. So when folks are listening to this, I’ll likely be in Norfolk, Virginia, a few steps away from the ocean, which I’m very excited for. And when I’m not doing what I do for a living, which is writing, I am either writing for fun or in the warm months throwing myself into the ocean. I am a hobbyist paddle, border, and bodyboarder. And now that I live near the ocean, I look forward to learning how to surf, which I’m sure will get me a lot of bruises. And that’s probably about it. But it’ll be fun. It’ll be good for me, it’ll be good for me to try something new. So I’m very excited about that new adventure.

 

Lexie Smith 

That’s amazing. I live in Southern California. Now I’m not from here. But my husband is from this area, born and raised. And he has never been surfing a day in his life. So like you are not a true California boy. I know. Oh, I know. You like scuba diving. But that, you know, requires more effort. And what have you? So why the move, what’s bringing you? Are you from Pennsylvania now you’re moving away, Do you just want to try something new?

 

Amanda Lien 

So I grew up in Minneapolis, Minnesota, which I’m sure you know, folks listening, who are from the Midwest will probably hear some of the Midwestern isms in my speech and vocal patterns. After a brief stint living in the South, my family and I moved out here to Philly, and I’ve been here since I graduated college, but my parents are looking to make a move down somewhere warmer, but more coastal, and I’m the oldest daughter, and I’m lucky enough to you know, have my own business be a solopreneur and have the flexibility to work from anywhere. And you know, my mother is not in the best of health. She’s not going anywhere anytime soon, but she’s not in, you know, the best health and so just being closer to her makes me feel a bit more secure. So you know, we’re gonna live across town from each other far enough away for you know, we do not feel like we’re on top of one another because you know, mothers and daughters can kind of have that thing, but close enough where I’m around. She needs me and she’s around if I want her because let’s be real, I don’t think you’ve stopped wanting your mom until you’re like in your 40s.

 

Lexie Smith 

yeah, no. And my mom, my mom listens to this show. And she’s probably so jealous right now and wishing that I would come home. But I’m currently trying to get my mom to come down. I’m from Oregon, Originally. I’m having a baby in March. And I’m trying to get her to come down for at least a month just because yes, I want my mama.

 

Amanda Lien 

Oh my gosh, with a baby on the way especially congratulations.

 

Lexie Smith 

Thank you. Thank you for appreciating it. So yeah, crazy changes happening over here, too. Congratulations on the move. Now, let’s dive in and talk about careers. While young on paper, the only reason I bring that up is you highlighted that in your introduction posts. And I’m a firm believer that age is just a number. You’ve already had quite the journey thus far. So can you share a bit about your journey into journalism and freelancing? How did you get started and then we’ll kind of work up to where you’re at today.

 

Amanda Lien 

So growing up as the voracious reader and writer that I was and also as a homeschooled kid, I’ve had a lot of time thanks to my mom. To explore those passions. I always knew that I wanted to be a reporter, mostly because I was really nosy as a child, but also because I knew that you know, journalism was a change maker and I knew that you know, my penchant for, you know, writing, telling stories plus that desire to do something tangible with my gifts that would make a difference. That seemed like a natural career path to follow. So when I was 16, I enrolled in this dual enrollment program with a local community college and we lived in Texas at the time. I’ve lived everywhere. It’s kind of funny, but I had the opportunity to take college courses for both high school and college credit. That’s a fancy way of saying that this is why I graduated with my bachelor’s degree at the age of 20. And that is why I’m as of this recording only 23. So after I kind of sped around In my college career, during which I had a number of internships, I started to, you know, get my foot into the journalism industry. But while I was doing that, and even while I was in college, I was freelancing on the side for two reasons. First of all, being an intern, let alone a Journalism intern does not pay the bills. And I was paying for my own education, paying for my own, you know, pretty much everything. And I wanted to make a bit of extra money on the side. But I also wanted to make sure that I was investing time and energy in some sort of side hustle or second form of income, that would keep me versatile and agile within the workforce, should the journalism thing not work out. I entered Journalism School in 2016, which was surely a time to step into journalism. And as an aspiring local government reporter, which is what I was at the time, I knew that the chances of financial instability were very, very great. And being someone who is chronically ill, I have fixed expenses, like the doctor’s bills to pay, and so I needed that kind of reassurance. So I started freelancing on the side working with PR firms, local small businesses, writing, ad copy, writing, marketing, you know, copy for them, social media posts, and the like. And it was a great way to earn some extra cash, but also to broaden my skill set and ended up paying off down the line, but I know we’re going to get there. Immediately after college, I joined the staff of a local newspaper in a small town in northern Mississippi, which was a lot of fun, and a great learning experience. But then after I left that paper and came back out east, I stepped into more editorial roles, because I found that I no longer really wanted my byline out there, I didn’t really care so much anymore, if my name was all over the things that I wrote.

 

Amanda Lien 

And I found that, you know, in fact, operating in the shadows, so to speak, whether as a ghostwriter, which is what I was doing as a freelancer on the side at the time, or as an editor helping other writers that were where I once was come up and into their own felt way more rewarding than putting my name on a page. And, you know, getting those accolades. In fact, it started to kind of make me a little uncomfortable. So I pivoted to editorial roles, ended up building some editorial teams within some really great organizations across the state of digital media. And then I ended up here.

 

Lexie Smith 

Okay, amazing, because the first role I wanted to really dive into and we’re gonna kind of work our way up, which will similarly follow the trajectory of your career. But you were the associate editor of Digital Trends for some time, where you managed a team of freelance writers and editors across three websites in lifestyle, health, travel and home design spaces, I literally copied that from your LinkedIn. Okay, so I’d love to dip into this role a little bit more. First, as an associate editor, were you getting pitched from publicists and entrepreneurs, and then assigning topics to your team? Or were you just being pitched by freelancers? Talk us through what that role looked like? And who was reaching out to you as an associate editor?

 

Amanda Lien 

Yeah, for sure. So we did get pitches, you know, we were in the unique position of the suite of websites that I helped oversee and build from the ground up was the first of its kind under the Digital Trends Media Group umbrella. So we gotta try a lot of things out and see what worked and what didn’t and kind of go from there. As our sites grew in popularity, we did receive a fair amount of pitches, um, mostly from companies or brands looking for product reviews, that was kind of the niche wherein our sites rested. So we would have, you know, we would get, you know, everything from pet care brands, to you know, home health and wellness, to even home security brands reaching out to us asking for product features, product reviews and considerations. And from there, we would either engage in a dialogue with the brand or to be honest, sometimes I would be asked by, you know, my editor in chief to pass it on to someone on another vertical depending on where the best fit was.

 

Amanda Lien 

But we always tried to find a home for the pitch whenever we could, because, you know, on my end, I remember how hard it is, you know, from my freelance work at the time to land a pitch somewhere, but also because my team and I always believed in no such thing as a missed opportunity, we wanted to make sure we capitalized on any potential opportunity that might come across our desks, because, you know, sometimes it comes from the most unlikely places. And we always wanted to be open to that. So we had the benefit of being a burgeoning website or suite of websites. And so we were able to, you know, respond to a lot of pitches and work with a lot of brands, which was pretty fun.

 

Lexie Smith 

Pretty fun. Okay, so this might be pulling up the memory strings a bit, but any general pieces of advice or things you noticed about really successful pitches that you received, first, those that even though you’re super nice, and you wanted to get back to everyone just really missed the mark in the context, knowing that we have publicists and entrepreneurs listening to us right now.

 

Amanda Lien 

Yeah, absolutely. I think the big two things and I try to follow this you know, my own advice when I’m pitching you know, myself now that I’m a solopreneur is the first one is don’t bury the lead, you know, editor inboxes and I know everyone says this But Oh boy, is it true editor’s inboxes are constantly overflowing. I don’t think I ever made it to inbox zero after my first week, I think my inbox was always in the triple digits no matter how hard I tried. So burying the lede, making an editor read a paragraph or two to get to the meat of your pitch is not going to do it for you, you need to start off with a bag. I know it might feel awkward or uncomfortable or pushy, especially for you know us ladies who are kind of brought up and told you know that we need to soften ourselves and apologize for what exists I don’t even know. But that sort of thing. Don’t do that. Resist the urge. Just straight up tell editor’s who you are, what you want, and why you think y’all are a good fit. It might seem pushy and aggressive at first, but editors don’t have the time. And I think the other thing that I think a lot of especially, you know women kind of shy away from is following up because of the aforementioned overflowing inbox. The chances are pretty high that an editor just straight up did not see your pitch and did not see your email because the inboxes move so fast. And plus, we don’t just have I’m saying we as if I’m still in this position, but I didn’t have just email to contend with.

 

Amanda Lien 

I also had teams. I also had an Asana board time, there’s like five is the website screw like I had all these other things to keep up with editors are barely keeping their heads above water. So do them and yourself a favor and follow up. You know, don’t obviously don’t be annoying, but it’s not annoying to follow up. The follow up itself is not annoying. And I tell a lot of people this, especially women, because I don’t want to be annoying. I don’t want to be like this. I don’t want to be that I get it, because that was me at one point. But sometimes the best way, the only way to get results is to be persistent, because editors might not have seen it at all, which isn’t on you and isn’t on them. It just happens but you increase your chances of visibility or just have a response in general, if you follow up once or twice to kind of bump the email up there and remind the editor Oh, yeah, I didn’t ever reply to that. My bad because sometimes it just happens that way.

 

Lexie Smith 

Yeah, no. And thank you so much for highlighting the fact that we’re human. And this is something I’ve said on the show before and I remind my clients all the time that I felt like the pitch was really good and like it was really good. Why don’t you send a follow up? There’s 1,000,001 factors you have to remind her that remember the person at the other side of the inbox is a human so thank you for reiterating that I really appreciate it. Okay, so in season one of this podcast my routine listeners may know this for those of you who haven’t been listening with us go on back. I talked a little bit about ghostwriting with another incredible Freelancer Sano Hussain but since it’s been a minute I want to start us off because I know you go straight now with a quick What the heck is ghostwriting?

 

Amanda Lien 

So ghost writing in the simplest terms that I could put it is I take words out of someone else’s mouth, put them down on paper and give it to them for approval so they can put their name on it. I have a lot of clients who are incredibly well spoken, who can talk at length for hours about their area of expertise. But when it comes to sitting down in front of a Word document, they freeze up they don’t know what to write or they simply don’t have the time and that’s where I come in my clients or my clients clients because I do work with PR firms so they’ll send me their clients voice recordings of their expertise. And I turn it from an interview into an intelligible , hopefully intelligent copy for the PR firms with which I contract or the clients themselves to place in digital media or sometimes print media. I’ve seen some of my ghostwritten work in print, which is kind of cool and surreal. This also applies to things like ebooks. I’ve ghostwritten several Amazon Best selling ebooks across a variety of niches, and social media posts as well. It’s pretty much anything that is written by you, but with someone else’s name on it. That’s essentially what ghost writing is. The perfection.

 

Lexie Smith 

Would you say there’s a difference between ghost writing and copywriting?

 

Amanda Lien 

I would say that they overlap but they don’t always have to. It’s kind of a Venn diagram thing going. I think there’s a lot of times when I do brand copywriting where obviously there’s no name on it, but the brand’s you know, you can’t really attribute it to one person and that brand copy usually goes on a brand’s website, there is some copywriting that I do that is for the CEO of a brand where it’s going to go on the website with a CEOs name on it, but she didn’t write it. And that’s kind of where the Venn diagram intersects. And there’s the bulk of the ghost writing I do, which is ghostwriting thought leadership articles for experts in a particular niche, which can be anything from health and wellness to supply chain management, believe it or not, and those articles have their names on them and they are approved by the client. A lot of times they feature a lot of direct verbiage from the interviews they’ve recorded and sent to me and that is straight up ghostwritten content that’s going to a publication so there can be an overlap for sure. But it’s sometimes one or the other. It kind of depends. There’s a lot of fine lines in the world of writing and author so you know, it’s fine

 

Lexie Smith 

But I like the Venn diagram as a perfect way to put it because I think that’s exactly what it is. and adapting the language and tone of someone, someone other than yourself is a very difficult skill to master, in my opinion. But as an entrepreneur, if you can have someone who is able to help produce content, and your tone of voice, like the thought leadership articles you produce, I mean, that is a game changer in terms of saving time. So of course, the options on the market are right, you can hire someone, just like yourself, which guy’s listening, I highly suggest you do if that is, you know, you’re able to however, what I’d love to explore a little bit more is for entrepreneurs listening, who want to train someone on their team to do such, or for maybe you’re on a team, and you want to learn how you can start help ghostwriting for your CEO or your client? How does one even go about developing that type of skill set? And maybe the best way to look at this, as you know, you get a new client? Is there a subset of information you start with to help learn their tone of voice? Or just walk me through that process? Yeah, well,

 

Amanda Lien 

I think for me, it might be a little bit different. So I will start with the caveat that my journalism training and I also just finished earning my Masters of Fine Arts and Creative Writing. So those two degrees in that training definitely helped me. So if it feels like it’s a harder battle for you to fight, maybe I’m making it sound. It’s definitely not you. It’s just me and the privilege that I have through my education. That said, the first three questions I always ask any new client is what tone? Would you like your ghostwritten content to be adopted? Do you want it to be irreverent and witty, but competent? Do you want it to be serious and straightforward? Do you want something that’s casual, laid back and approachable? Like what kind of tone or energy are you looking to convey with this content, and a lot of that is also going to be informed by where they would like the content placed, obviously, you’re not going to adopt an irreverent witty tone for the Wall Street Journal, but you might want to for placement on Buzzfeed. So that kind of plays into consideration. The second question that I always ask is, who’s your target audience? Who do you want to be reading this, because again, if I’m if I know that my client is writing, or wants to have me write, rather, a thought leadership piece for the, you know, leading Supply Chain Management publication, the tone of voice and the expertise coming forth is going to vary because that audience is going to be different than the audience of the New York Times. So keeping that in mind also helps writing for your audience and writing for your client should both be taken into equal amounts of consideration when putting together a piece like that. And then the third question I ask is, could you send me a recording of yourself speaking about this topic? What I’m trying to capture from that recording, is their vocal cadence, the rhythm of their speech, the words that they use, because a lot of times when my clients review the content I’ve written for them, the first thing they say is, wow, this actually sounds like me, this reads like I would have written it myself. And that’s my goal. And the way that I achieve that is by either sitting them down and interviewing them myself, or having them send me a recording of them just talking about their expertise, the way that I’m talking.

 

Amanda Lien 

Now, you can get a great sense of where someone is at with their mindset, where someone is at in terms of how they relate to their profession, their expertise, their career, whatever it is just from the way they talk about it. When no one is paying attention to them, or no one is listening and getting that vocal cadence down and translating that into copy will go a long way in making it feel not only like the client wrote it, but also natural, conversational and approachable even if the tone is more stiff and starched because of the publication,

 

Lexie Smith 

Okay, magic. And I think for those listening, we’re like, Oh, my God, that’s a lot of work. I’m just gonna hire out. And let’s say that you try Amanda, and she’s fully booked out. So amazing. Think about what she just said. And in the interview process of hiring a different ghostwriter. I think those three points that you just hit on Amanda, you should be looking for if you’re going to be hiring a ghostwriter. Those are the type of questions and the type of process that they should be inviting you to join. So I think there’s a lot no matter where you are on the side of that topic from. I want to do it too. I want to receive it too. I want to hire it. Something you can pull from that. Okay, so you have produced everything from viral LinkedIn content to best selling books. So needless to say, you’re very good at what you do. I’d love to hear some of your best pieces of advice when it comes to producing viral content and stories that sell

 

Amanda Lien 

Oh, boy, there’s a lot. Yeah, there’s learned along the way from my mistakes. I have the attitude of don’t make my mistakes. Learn from mine. So you can go make your own new, different , exciting mistakes. Mine are all very boring. I think the The number one piece of advice that I I’ve been privileged enough to pass on to younger people younger than I who want to do what I do one day is your authenticity is going to take you farther than anything else in this industry, especially now, as you know, the freelance marketplace is becoming even more saturated. It is imperative that when you are telling stories, even if they’re for other people, even if they’re under other people’s names that your authenticity comes through. The reason why I’ll just use LinkedIn posts as an example, the reason why my LinkedIn posts that I wrote for clients went viral is because I took a heartfelt story and kept it that way. I didn’t sanitize it, I didn’t try to make it, you know, girl bossy, or, you know, overly fluffy, I stuck to the heart of the matter. And that compelled people to engage with it, which is what made it go viral. Obviously, engagement is what does that. But it’s something like that, you know, looking at the heart of the discussion, looking at the heart of what you’re talking about, no matter what it is, no matter how boring, it seems, is going to set your work apart. And it is also going to resonate with other people, I have this theory that even subconsciously, we as human beings, whenever we’re engaging with a piece of media, whether it’s a LinkedIn post of book, a movie, television, show, piece of music, whatever the case might be, I think that we even subconsciously, are more inclined to engage with that content. If we sense however, intrinsically or extrinsically, that it was made by someone with a fire in their belly, I think we can always tell when something was made to sell something to sell us something to sell records to whatever versus when it was made, because someone had something in them, they just had to share. And that goes a really long way in getting that engagement, getting those sales, getting that conversion, whatever the case might be. So that’s the number one piece of advice I would provide. Anyone who is looking to do this is tap into that authenticity, tap into that, that meaning whatever it is, wherever you can find it, because that’s what’s gonna set it apart, even if it’s not something tangible you could point to and, you know, say, this is why this works. It might not be visible, but it will always be there. If you have that mindset.

 

Lexie Smith 

fire in the belly, which I have in a different way these days. But no, I couldn’t agree. Any more. That was so good. There’s so much, I mean, so much knowledge pouring from your mouth right now. And I’m so excited to have it captured on recording. And it’s so true, you know, and I have a quick exercise for everyone. Look back on your posts, even from the last year, and see which ones did well, and see if you’re starting to notice that maybe the ones that did really well, where you got a little uncomfortable or you listened to that fire in your belly. And you spoke up authentically. I know for myself, I’m going to do this exercise again. I did it to someone recently but there’s so much truth to that. And don’t see it going away in 2022. So thank you for highlighting that truly. Okay, let’s talk about all the differences you kind of mentioned at the top of the show. But let’s talk about again, let’s bring it back to the present day, what you’re doing now and how people can work with you.

 

Amanda Lien 

So right now I am a full time solopreneur. I currently work with a variety of small businesses as well as PR firms and organizations across pretty much every niche imaginable now that I think about it to produce ghostwritten thought leadership pieces of social media. I’m free to shoot me an email or send me a LinkedIn message or connection request. I’m always around and practically glued to my phone because before anything else, I am a gen zer and I would be happy to chat and see how we can make some magic together.

 

Lexie Smith 

Gen Z, what’s the cut off between Gen Z and millennials? Do you know?

 

Amanda Lien 

I am further along than your average 23 year old but I do spend a lot of time on tick tock so I think it kind of balances out.

 

Lexie Smith 

No, that’s great. I’m in the millennial category, but the millennial category is so wide and I feel like there’s such, you know, from the young millennial to the old millennial, there’s so many differences. So that was a more dispersed question. Like how older Gen Z’s these days I don’t even I don’t even know. I don’t know. I don’t, I don’t even know. Okay, but of all the things that you write there’s so many things one, one more little tidbit I want to ask about and then we’ll begin to wrap it up. It’s press releases, or and I have to To shout this out for Tony Harrison, who was a former guest on the show, she refuses to call it not refuses. She believes that the proper term is news releases. So whether you call it a news release, or a press release, right, I inevitably call a press release even now because of Tony and try to call it a news release. Anyways, I digress. You write press releases and news releases. So the question that I have for you, for people listening, what is worthy of a press or news release? What is the indication that you have something that is worthy of that type of content?

 

Amanda Lien 

I think, ultimately, a press release should be announcing something new. That is the rule of thumb that I was taught in Journalism School, the rule of thought that I hammered home to all of the teams that I’ve built and overseen, if you have something new to bring to your audience, Garner’s a press release. Now, the type of press or news release, or how long it is, is going to vary. Obviously, you don’t need to go on for a full 400 words, if you are simply announcing a website redesign. But if that website redesign provides value to your target audience then it does warrant a release of some kind, because you have something new to bring to the table. And people deserve to know about that value. Now that said, if you’re you know, bringing someone new onto your team, or you’ve recently decided to, you know, go public, or you’ve recently opened a new investment round, that’s a different story that obviously requires some context and details, some nuance, and that should be included in the release. But I think, while the length and substance of the release will differ, I think anytime you have something new and valuable to share with your target audience or with the people you hope will become your target audience, it warrants a release, I am in that process myself of attempting to write my own release, which is a very interesting concept, because I am attempting to launch a course or two in the new year and a press release. Obviously, a news release, whichever you prefer to call it. I call it a press release, because I’m an old school journalist.

 

Lexie Smith 

Again, I had a whole episode, you’ll have to listen to that one and hear her reasoning. So now I’m like, I try to catch myself just because I was on this show.

 

Amanda Lien 

Sure, fair enough. Yeah. But I think you know, anything that provides value that you want people to know about, because ultimately, a good release should be a short, quick way to get all the info you need. And none of the fluff, you might just glaze your eyes over sort of like sending out pitch emails, same sort of energy there. And that’s kind of what I tell my clients is, you know, if you think you need me to write a press release about something, you’re probably right, but the length and the content are probably what we’re going to have to have some conversations depending on what it’s about.

 

Lexie Smith 

Yes. And that is actually perfect. This is more of a technical question. But fundamentally what you know, length is one great element to highlight. But what makes a news release or press release different from a piece of marketing copy or an article for say,

 

Amanda Lien 

a news release is always going to feel way drier than any sort of marketing content or article and that’s a good thing. A good news release should just have the who the where the what the why, the how and what this means for you. It’s just that and whenever I encounter, you know, work to edit or write that has a lot of fluff, or a lot of extra quotes, I’m very quick to cut it out because the average attention span of readers plus the fact that traditionally a release is no longer than 400 words means there’s not a lot of time for fluffer extraneous information, just give the quick and dirty details tell people where they can go to read more and trust that those compelled by those quick and dirty details will pursue more information if you make it easily accessible, which you should by just including a link at the bottom of the release it really is that simple.

 

Lexie Smith 

Yeah, you just nailed it. I mean, so I echo that someone with a journalism PR degree is in the field. And if you don’t believe me and you don’t believe Amanda, go try to publish on a site like Business Wire and if you are even one word over 400 words, you will be charged my friend. Oh,

 

Amanda Lien 

yes. Oh, yes. It sure is.

 

Lexie Smith 

Okay, so we’re gonna begin wrapping things up. And this is the pigeon in sippin podcast. And so we talked about pitching. Now I have to ask what we can find you sippin so what is your favorite beverage? It can be alcoholic or non alcoholic Of course.

 

Amanda Lien 

So I recently invested in an espresso machine. So I have been working my way through a bunch of espresso, espresso and coffee sampler packs trying to find my new favorite coffee drink. So pretty much anytime before three o’clock in the afternoon you will catch me drinking coffee of some kind or espresso of some kind. Before I did any of this in high school. My first job was as a Starbucks barista, so I honed my taste for coffee very early and very often and You can pretty much mean, I have an empty coffee mug with me right now. And I also have a very sizable coffee mug collection which is great news for my cabinetry. And also the board movers are packing my stuff right now but I’m always drinking coffee. I have a lot of fun trying new flavors and trying to make all the drinks that I almost sort of kind of remember from my days as a barista.

 

Lexie Smith 

It’s funny my podcast producer who is on with us you guys listening don’t really get to see her face a lot but shout out to Ceili. She also Twilight’s not Twilight’s that makes it sound so dirty she also works at a really awesome local coffee shop as well which is where I know she is literally right now as we’re recording so she gets one of those on big time coffee lover for anyone who has never been pregnant or one day wants to be I will let you know it’s really hard because you can’t you’re not supposed to drink as much coffee so it’s been really difficult six months so far so and send all your your sympathy my way oh my god now she is doing the Mouth open emoji. Yes, yes, there’s a lot you will learn if children are on anyone ‘s list someday list anywho um, last but not least, Amanda, where can people connect with you to learn more about you to work with you and all the things?

 

Amanda Lien 

So if you want to learn more about my professional life and work with me, I’m on LinkedIn. My handle there is Amanda J. Lien, just my first name, my last name with a J in the middle. That’s my middle initial. and my website is the same Amanda J lien calm. And if you’re a Twitter user and want to see info about my second side life as a speculative fiction writer and columnist, I’m on Twitter at alien rights, because I think that my first initial plus last name, meaning alien, is very funny. And if I did not capitalize upon it at some level, I will be very disappointed in myself. So there it is on Twitter, if you want to find me.

 

Lexie Smith 

You’re like my favorite person ever. You’re witty, you’re funny. You’re smart. You’re all the things I’m loving. Thank you. No, thank you. Thank you for coming on the show sincerely. And I guess let’s see, it’s three o’clock. So you might be pastoring espresso cut off, but if not, have an extra cup for me. I will be resuming intake in three months. Oh, right.

Amanda Lien 

I bet you’re counting the days.

 

Lexie Smith 

Oh man. There we go. All right, cheers.