ChatGPT, Media Layoffs & The State of the Industry with Freelance Journalist with Alice Dubin – Podcast Transcript

Speakers:

Lexie Smith, Alice Dubin

 

Lexie Smith 

Welcome to the pitching and sipping podcast, where we talk PR trends and tips over sips and meet a wide range of incredible founders, PR pros and members of the media. I’m Lexie Smith, a former workaholic VP of PR and marketing turned to time entrepreneur, founder of the PR bar Inc, business NPR coach, new mama and self proclaimed connoisseur of puns, pizza and wine. I’m a huge believer that knowledge is power and kindness never goes out of style. Think of this show as a way to uplevel your business and career over happy hour. Now let’s get to pitching and sipping. Hello everyone. Welcome back to the pitching and sipping podcast. I am incredibly excited about today’s guest Alessandra or Ellis Dubin. Alice is a Los Angeles based travel and lifestyle writer. Her byline has appeared outlets like insider travel and leisure, Esquire glamour, Good Housekeeping afar, prevention Woman’s Day shaundalyn Southern let me Fast Company, and countless others. She has a bachelor’s degree from UC Berkeley and a master’s in journalism from New York University. I know I know of no I know. But I knew of Alice Through two past guests of the show, Jill and Allie and recently, I attended a live q&a session hosted by this trio, which we’ll talk about a little bit later. That being said, intros aside, Alice, welcome to the show. I love to start by asking the question, what do you like to do outside of work for fun?

 

Alice Dubin 

Thank you so much for having me. It’s so nice to meet you in person on Zoom, you know, as it were, what do I like to do outside of work for fun? Well, like so many of us, I kind of have a, you know, an a porous border between work and fun. I write about travel, but travel is like absolutely my favorite thing to do. And it just lights me up. So I do that as much as possible. And even when I’m not traveling for work, I always, you know, seem to generate a few story ideas out of it.

 

Lexie Smith 

Okay, so then I have to ask top, this is always a hard one to so I’m going to narrow this down top three favorite places you’ve ever been globally and then you can also highlight a US based location if there’s like a fourth Asterix.

 

Alice Dubin 

Okay, so let’s see how much time you remember this for 30 minutes exclusively, right? Um, so my favorite place on earth is French Polynesia, I honeymooned in Tahiti, in 2010. And then we were supposed to go back for our 10th wedding anniversary, but that was COVID. So we had to sort of delay that until 11 and a half years. I had I had a marvelous trip back last January, I also get to visit on some press travel over the last few years. And it’s just the most it’s it’s like if you’ve never been to Tahiti, Bora Bora, or any of the Asian islands it’s like truly the most beautiful, otherworldly place on earth. Like, I’ve done some snorkeling there that I was looking at this, these fish and looking at the wild, you know, the sea life and I’m thinking, I know my eyes are open. I know I’m awake, but I truly can’t believe what I’m seeing right now the colors and just it’s truly paradise. So that’s my favorite place to visit. I’ve also had just amazing travel days in Bali and Belize, Istanbul. Marrakech, gosh, Greece, Greece. In the US, I’m a big desert fan. I’m a I’m a longtime fan of both Las Vegas and Palm Springs for different reasons. Palm Springs for the restorative relaxing you know, dry air that sort of transports you to a you know another headspace entirely and Vegas, I guess also for transporting me to another headspace entirely but for different,

 

Lexie Smith 

very different reason. Okay, couple comments back first, guys, we’re recording this on February 15. Meaning yesterday was Valentine’s Day and I got my husband one of the things that got him was a couple’s bucket list. And so we sat down and started travel is a huge passion of ours and top of our bucket list as a couple is Tahiti. So that Oh, bad.

 

Alice Dubin 

Now I have to get a travel bucket list. That’s so funny. I mean, I actually have one of my notes app where I keep on

 

Lexie Smith 

Yeah, it’s it’s fun. I mean, I’ve always had my own and he’s had his own and like, Oh cute, let’s be cute and make money together. So that’s that’s what we did. And then the second question I had what island in Greece? That’s where I did my honeymoon. Oh, yeah.

 

Alice Dubin 

Well, Santorini, Mykonos and also, I went right before the pandemic with my whole family to one of my best college girlfriends is Greek American. And she Christian, her son back in sort of her family’s ancestral, you know, village in Greece. And then we went with all the Greeks to all the Greek and Greek American friends to Spetses where it was mostly Greeks on holiday. And we had the best time and I think, especially because we were with Greek speakers, we sort of, you know, we got a little access that we might not have otherwise had.

 

Lexie Smith 

Literally, I’m like, wait, like, see, what is this podcast on? Okay. I’m over here now dreaming and lala land. So love travel. I’m with you there. Guys. Don’t worry. Okay, so raining, and then I’m reading myself in, we’re going to transition to talking about your career. So let’s rewind time, and just high level give us the Cliff Notes version of your career up until today.

 

Alice Dubin 

Okay. Well, as you mentioned, in the intro, I studied undergraduate at UC Berkeley, Go Bears. And I, you know, I knew that I was going to be a writer, but I started out as you know, corporate communications. And very soon after, I realized that journalism was where it was at. And that’s where I wanted to be for sure. So that was when I went to NYU, for graduate school in journalism with a focus on cultural reporting and criticism. And then when I graduated, I started my career there, actually, as an editor for a trade publication for the events industry. And that was so rewarding in so many ways. I stayed on in various capacities for oh my gosh, I mean, even I still very occasionally freelance, but I was on staff for probably, you know, 14 years, I had the opportunity to move out from New York back to LA, which was home for me to launch the LA Bureau and really the West Coast bureau of what we were doing, so I oversaw the Vegas coverage as well, and started freelancing on the side. And then my freelance career sort of took on a life of its own as happens and it just sort of was growing and growing and growing, started contributing a lot of freelance content to Bravo tv.com. I came on there eventually in a staff position when kind of freelanced you know, just became, you know, was was converted into a staff position, left my other responsibilities at that time, too. We Bravo tv.com, at that time was launching lifestyle vertical. So I came on to head up travel, the Travel section, and then I also ended up getting the food section under my purview. And in 2019, just prior to the pandemic, I was laid off in a restructuring, I thought it was the worst thing ever, I had never somehow even in this crazy changing industry been laid off before. It’s very painful, I can’t recommend it if it’s happened to anyone. And I assumed that I would be looking for another, you know, sort of full time job to replace the one that I had lost and health insurance and 401k matching, and all of the things that I thought were, you know, really desirable, and that I couldn’t, I thought I couldn’t afford to lose was freelancing in the meanwhile, just sort of, quite honestly, to, to of course, generate some income and to stay relevant and just sort of keep, you know, my, my name being widely circulated, well, what happened, I got more and more clients, I really started to love the work that I was doing, I loved that it was so diversified. So within a few months, I had, you know, well, within six months, I had enough work and with 12 months I had so much work that I could really start picking and choosing the things that were most interesting to me are the most rewarding the most prestige or the best paying or whatever the you know, top tier attributes of a client it are and then there’s a certain point I was like, I would never go back I would never go back to the to the full time staff. Grind frankly, and I don’t really miss having a boss I’ll tell you that much. I also don’t miss you know 401 K matching, I find that this work. You know being my own boss is better compensated I get to make my own I set my own rates and they make My own, you know, business decisions and you know take on additional revenue streams like my substack. And I just, I honestly love what I do I love my job. I can say that truly for I don’t know how many times in my life I can say that without equivocating at all so in the last three years now I’ve been doing you know full time freelance now plus my substack it’s a mix of travel and lifestyle writing, so across you know, parenting, family relationships, wellness, health, you know, some beauty and home and fashion, all that stuff. And I also do some content writing in there, but the mix now is primarily journalistic writing.

 

Lexie Smith 

Okay, so first everyone, don’t worry, we’ll include links to her substack in the show notes I highly suggest you get on that list. Selfishly we’re in LA are you

 

Alice Dubin 

I’m in the I’m in Carthay square, which is in the mid city area very near LACMA and the new academy Museum and the tar pits and all the stuff

 

Lexie Smith 

all the stuff so I’m not in LA but I’m in Ventura. Are you? Sure? Yeah. Oh, my close, but yes. La southern coast. Yeah, same coast. It is an hour. Okay. So down that area would probably take me no traffic. 50 minutes.

 

Alice Dubin 

Oh, I mean, it takes me 15 minutes to like to make the left turn on Fairfax near my house. Literally, though. That’s the trade off. We’re living in such a happening and fun and diverse and lively and walkable area is the congestion is out of this world. But, you know, these are the choices we make.

 

Lexie Smith 

I wish we had met circa six years ago, because I used to be the Director of PR and marketing for a Hospitality Group across LA. Are you familiar with the above 60 property in Beverly Hills?

 

Alice Dubin  

Yes, of course. Yeah, sure that we’ve I’m sure that.

 

Lexie Smith 

That was like my main hub. My offices on the rooftop is

 

Alice Dubin 

glorious, the 60 Beverly Hills Hotel, right? Yeah, I’m sure we connected. I have to go search my inbox.

 

Lexie Smith 

Sorry, guys. Couple of selfish questions thrown in there. All right, of course, number two, reining myself in. So thank you for that great overview. I want to now rewind a little bit, I pinned this earlier, I mentioned this type of show. But as I said, guys, I went to a live q&a session with Alice Ali and Jill. And for everyone’s reference, this session was mainly regarding the mass media layoffs that happened at the top of 2023, chat GPT. And the role of AI in the world of media, basically, the state of our industry. By the time that this is going to air there probably is going to be some updates to the space. But I’m just giving you guys that context as to where the timing of the world is when we’re having this conversation today, which is mid February. So Alice, first off, can you catch everyone up to speed a little bit about what’s happening across the industry right now when it comes to hiring, firing and layoffs?

 

Alice Dubin 

Yeah, so Well, I appreciate that. The way you set up the introduction, because that’s true. This is such a swiftly moving landscape. With the layoffs, I suppose, as well, but also with the developments in the you know, the various AI tools and news and, you know, competitors popping up that I think it probably won’t matter if people are listening in a week or two weeks, it’ll matter a lot. So that’s a really interesting time to be in media when, you know, it’s always changing and always evolving. But now it’s sort of like lightning speed at this particular moment. Your first question, I think, was about layoffs, layoffs, unfortunately, that is what we’re seeing, you know, we are seeing waves and waves of, of layoffs, starting around December. And it’s, you know, we’ve seen a large round at dotdash Meredith, which I believe laid off about seven or 8% of its staff. And you know, that’s such a major conglomerate that you know, I contribute too many titles over there. And so everyone is kind of looking to see who of their friends are still standing in staff positions, bustle digital group VDG did a big round of layoffs. It’s it’s tough and it’s reminiscent of earlier eras, many of them I can remember. I mean, this is cyclical. It happens from time to time and it happens a lot in media. It just it’s it’s the nature of this industry, and you know, such a dynamic one. I think what will happen is these jobs They probably will not be replaced, they won’t be back filled. What happened to me is that, you know, I was laid off, and I just thought I would be looking for another full time opportunity. Soon after I realized that I wasn’t that wasn’t what I wanted at all freelance is actually sort of where the opportunities are. Because, in part, I just find it much more appealing work. But also, because those cherry staff jobs really are kind of a thing of the past, they’re much fewer and further between, they’re not. They don’t even have the same prestige or compensation or any of the things that they used to have in the sort of Conde Nast heyday, with the black cars and the expense accounts in the 90s. And all that. A world that I came in, and I missed, sort of, I came in at the tail end of that, so I missed all that stuff. But, you know, it nevertheless was certainly a different Gilded Age of staff editor life. So I think that it’s just going to be, you know, more and more of the people that you know, in media are going to be swirling around this solar system, but in a different way. And that’s in a freelance capacity.

 

Lexie Smith 

You know, that I send out a community newsletter roundup every Tuesday, chocked full of resources, free media kit, downloads, event invites, journalists, contacts, visibility opportunities, basically, if you’re not on the list, hit pause and sign up. It’s super simple. Go to the PR bar inc.com/newsworthy. That link is in the show notes. Okay, back to the show. Thank you for that overview, and I’m gonna pull now the other kind of buzzword that is making headlines no matter where you look, and that is chat GPT. And this is definitely related to the recent surge of layoffs. So do you mind sharing just high level guys don’t quote me verbatim on this. But what is chat? GPT? Yes, so

 

Alice Dubin 

in short chat, GPT is AI, it’s an it’s an AI tool for content generation, created by open AI. And it was, it really just kind of seemed to seem to come out of nowhere, and it sort of happened so fast, and everybody was creating an account, just to see what it was all about. What you can you can still do for free is my understanding of just go to open ai.com and follow the prompts from there, you’ll have to check a box that certifies you’re not a robot, which is like hashtag irony. And then you should be able to poke around and try it out. So very quickly, everyone in our world started freaking out. It’s like panic level, you know, very high, because this AI can spit out content really fast. And it looks at least at first glance, pretty possible. Right off the bat, I can go into a little bit more about why it’s actually it’s not very good right now. But we all imagined it’ll get there. I mean, this is just sort of the first version. So soon after. Last week, I believe it was Google revealed its own AI functionality. And interestingly, when it tried to, you know, debut this technology, it there was like a lot of inaccuracies that were produced in the in the demo. And so Google’s stock automatic, you know, just very quickly dropped seven or 8% on this, you know, this this somewhat failed demo. But it’s clear that like, this is just the beginning stages. It’s all it’s all coming down the pike. And shortly after Google announced its own AI in development. It, of course, changed its stance for ranking on AI generated content, of course, because obviously, you would imagine that Google wouldn’t want to penalize its own robots creating content. So It now includes language like, I’ll find it for you. Google’s ranking systems aim to reward original high quality content that demonstrates qualities of what we call EA T expertise, experience, experience. authoritativeness and trustworthiness are focused on the quality of content rather than how content is produced is a useful guide that has helped us deliver reliable high quality results to users for years. So and then under the FAQ on that page. It says AI can assist with and generate useful content in exciting new ways. So that confirms what we just you know, it’s assumed would be coming with Google’s announcement that it’s not going to be penalizing AI content that is used to generate what it considers, quote, high cost, high quality content. And while all of this is happening, Microsoft announced its new AI powered Bing search engine, which then took Bing from something that nobody ever heard about. It was sort of the laughingstock search engine, to something that, you know, now people care about Bing, and people are really interested to see what’s going to happen with it. So all of a sudden, there’s this explosion of AI technology and general interest. And so we’re finding that we, as writers are trying to figure out what this means for us. Because if we’re wise, we will acknowledge that it’s happening, it’s here, it’s the genie is not going back in the bottle. So how can we use it for our productivity? And also, you know, the, on the corporate side, you’ve got like, you know, Chief Content, officers, editors in chief and so forth, trying to figure out what is our policy, like, what are we doing with this? What does this mean? And it’s sort of the wild west right now? Because everyone, there’s I think, there is no uniform answer. Nobody knows which way to run. We know there’s sort of a panic, but nobody knows which way to run right now. Do we run towards it, run away from it. So it’s a it’s a very dynamic time.

 

Lexie Smith 

It weldless is perfect, too. It really is. And this is something that’s evolving so quickly. And so I wanted to bring this topic to the show, you guys, because whenever you’re listening, we want this on your radar. Right, like, actively keep a pulse on on what’s happening that thank you for sharing what Google their terms are, so to say, have been updated? I’ve been wondering, you guys brought that up in your you had your session prior to that announcement, right?

 

Alice Dubin 

In fact, and we did our AMA, with my colleagues, Jill and Ali, it was it was the Monday morning just before Google’s announcement. So that that just goes to show that you know, all the things that we were sort of trying to talk about, we were trying to rise to people’s questions about what does this mean for ranking? And we’re like, Well, this is the best we can speculate. We don’t really know, later, the same day Google came out with announced its announcement. So that’s kind of, you know, I’m not sure exactly when your show is going to air. But I wonder if this will sound totally,

 

Lexie Smith 

I know I’m laughing, we’re gonna definitely put this atop of season five. So regardless, if not everyone can laugh at us. And I’m just getting

 

Alice Dubin 

back. Like, it’ll just sound like a quaint you know, sort of reflection on the future of the world wide web or whatever it would have found

 

Lexie Smith 

to take take over literally, I feel like the robots are trying to take over the world. But on that joke, slash serious note, one thing you guys brought up that I couldn’t agree more with, is that what robots aren’t is human, right? So they can’t replace the human experience. And I want to kind of pivot for you know, we spend the next five hours speculating on everything that could happen with AI, it’s, you know, we will see, I do want to acknowledge that you are your own human right. And there are certain types of journalism that a robot can’t speak to. So I’d love to kind of talk about what are the types of content that the human experience is really, really needed?

 

Alice Dubin 

Right. So as I alluded to earlier, the, the content that Chet GPT currently generates is, I mean, the writing is pretty bad, it’s not good. But you can only imagine, I mean, it takes very little imagination to see how that’s going to change and improve very swiftly. So it’s very easy to imagine that the writing itself will be you know, the content will be good at some stage probably before too long. And if there are issues with that, I’m still, you know, unknown, unknown to me, at least, as far as, you know, plagiarism concerns, you know, any any type of accuracy issues, that I I’m sure that this will improve, you know, very quickly and probably to the point that it’s, you know, resolved a lot of these concerns. The one thing it will never ever be sort of, by definition is human, they can’t I mean, a robot cannot be a human that’s like literally the one thing it can’t do. Even when, you know, the AI tools, technical specs are like, you know, out of this world. So for that reason, I think that we’re going to see even more movement towards them. sort of content that prioritizes first person perspective, OR, AND, OR original reporting, things that you can only get from a human. So by first person perspective, I mean, you know, a robot can round up all of the, you know, technical specs from product descriptions online about the best breast pumps available right now, for new moms, but only a human who has real world experience with them can provide judgment and discernment and experience based, you know, based on the human experience. So I think that stories like that, for instance, are going to lean evermore into those first person points of view. Similarly, the, the AI tools, and at least right now, and again, it’s a little bit hard to imagine how they would be able to do this ever. They can’t, like interview sources, or first person, you know, for to get original reporting. So what they’re doing essentially is like using the internet, as it exists for their database to pull, you know, all of this content from, so they can’t, you know, so I think that any story that I might currently do that would lean into, you know, internet searches for, for the content, I think those stories are going to fall more and more by the wayside. And we’re going to be leaning more into stories that do have the original reporting that do have unique sources that do have unique perspectives, whether it’s first person points of view or, you know, third person, fresh perspective, original interviews and so forth.

 

Lexie Smith 

could not agree more. Such a fair, and I think, really accurate assessment and kind of on that note, I want to acknowledge that you are a human and thus, I want to talk a little bit about you as a human and your needs and wants and desires and all the things when it when it comes to journalism at this point in time, my first question for you is very high level when it comes to whether it be business owners or publicist PR firms who who has it, who names it, who is reaching out to you top high level do’s or don’ts right now.

 

Alice Dubin 

Hmm. Well, I’ve written about this in the past, the first the first thing that popped into my mind when you said that is one type of PR pitch that I absolutely, just cannot. That is when people reach out to me and pitch either a product or a service or a destination with some type of quid pro quo attached. You know, we’d like to send you this kitchen gadget in exchange for coverage. That’s a no, we would like to fly you out to this place. In exchange for confirmed coverage? No, for many reasons. One is that, I think that exhibits just a fundamental failure to understand what journalistic writing is, which is not that, you know, that’s maybe more appropriate for influencers or something like that, where there’s a contractual agreement, but this is not that. And also because, again, especially with this, so many changes in the market. And everything i i am a freelance writer, I cannot promise I cannot guarantee, you know, coverage or placement because things happen, people get laid off, then my editor is, you know, all of a sudden gone and that story is no longer, you know, slated to run that story got bumped because there was more breaking, you know, a breaking news situation that that bumped it, and then it it just never reclaimed its place. So, and whole outlets disappear and shatter. So there’s no, there’s no reasonable way, especially for a freelance writer contributing to an outlet to guarantee coverage, I don’t think any sort of ethical or appropriate way in almost all cases. And similarly, there, I don’t see how any kind of pitch with a quid pro quo is, like an acceptable pitch. And for me, those go right out the window.

 

Lexie Smith 

Yeah, yeah, no, two quid pro quo, guys.

 

Alice Dubin 

That’s right. Put it on a protest sign. Yes.

 

Lexie Smith 

Okay. So it’s good one, um, I want to go into something to do on show this show called Rapid Fire pitching preferential questions. On this same thing. It’s it’s really just your own preference here. So So, I’m just gonna rattle through a bunch of questions and yes, no, maybe so however you feel about it. Are you ready? Ready? Like always seems like a flogger. Do you have a preferred day of the week to be pitched? No. A day they should avoid?

 

Alice Dubin 

No

 

Lexie Smith 

time of day? No. Are you pro follow ups yay or nay? Yay. And just a little specific on that one. How and then those are the caveats. So it’s a little not rapid fire, but the time in between a follow up. Do you have a preference? Their advice?

 

Alice Dubin 

I think you gotta give it at least a week, unless there’s, you know, some time sensitive, you know, caveat or something has changed in that time. Like, oh, you know, we wanted to update you and let you know that this product won’t be live for sale. By the date we suggest it or it’s actually sold out or this person has been let go from the company that was going to be speaking that we that we offered view as a thought leader, then obviously follow up sooner, but otherwise, I’d say you gotta give it a week. Okay,

 

Lexie Smith 

where do you want to be pitched email, DMS phone call text?

 

Alice Dubin 

Oh my god for the love of God. Please don’t call me nobody call me. My mom really should know better than to call me like just do not call me because that’s where messages go to die. In my voicemail. I literally have like 250 unread er and listened to messages right now. Do not call me Do not DM me, please because i don’t i just like in most cases won’t even see those I like I either use my social platforms. Usually for you know, interactions with with friends are basic, you know, quick quippy back and forth but not as a filing system for like, oh, let’s go back and revisit that and search my I am. My my Instagram DMS for like story ideas. I would never ever use it that way. So it’ll just get lost. By all means, please, please email. And I will say too, it’s just like the best way to get your pitch seen because even if I’m traveling, or even if I’m too busy at that moment, I just can’t get to it. I always mark everything unread until I’m ready to address it, or I’ll file it in a subfolder but I’m always going to see it at some point. And that just is not the case. Certainly for a voicemail or a you know, like a Facebook DM or something like that.

 

Lexie Smith 

For sure. I’m laughing because today on Ali’s substack she had this whole thing about how she got a long text pitch and I like started twitching for her. Don’t do it.

 

Alice Dubin 

No, don’t do it. Do not do it.

 

Lexie Smith 

Right. Why isn’t trees at the top of pitch so a sentence or two? Kind of proving they know your work? Yeah, your name? Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so my last question for you. Is we’ve talked pitching very excited. This is a video podcast because now every episode I get to do this. What can we find you sippin What is your favorite beverage?

 

Alice Dubin 

I came unprepared? I mean, I don’t I don’t know what would have been clever.

 

Lexie Smith 

Beverage your favorite beverage? Alcoholic non alcoholic.

 

Alice Dubin 

today? It’s a Diet Coke. Diet Coke.

 

Lexie Smith 

I liked any any other beverages or Diet Coke?

 

Alice Dubin 

Well, I’m definitely a fan of caffeine. The more the better, please. With the coffee. Yes, yes. Yes on the coffee. I love a glass of wine. I love a last night I had a fabulous Negroni at a restaurant called Negroni appropriately in Los Angeles.

 

Lexie Smith 

I like to mix it up. What type of wine?

 

Alice Dubin 

I also like to mix it up. I’m I’m open red, white, rose a bubbles, if not all at the same

 

Lexie Smith 

day. time of year. Temperature food. Everything impacts. Yeah, it’s for me. So sure. Awesome. Okay, well last question for you is if people want to connect or reach out again, we’ll include your substack link in the show notes but where else can they go to learn more about your work?

 

Alice Dubin 

So for sure you can find me on Alice dubin.com and get my portfolio and my bio there more about me? My substack Instagram, Tik Tok and Twitter all at Alice Dubin. Facebook is Alice Dubin media I mean, I’m

 

Lexie Smith 

all the places omni channel I love it. Well, amazing again could have held you hostage for five hours but I’m so glad that we got a chance to connect and pitch and sit today. Until next Scott next time guys on the pitching and sipping podcast. Cheers. Hey guys, if you are enjoying the pitching and sipping podcast, please do do me a huge favor and leave a review wherever you are listening. If you want to connect with me to learn more about the PR bar Inc. You can do so on Instagram Act, the PR bar underscore inc or you can check out my website at the PR bar inc.com Cheers