Effectively Representing Marginalized & Underrepresented Groups in PR with Caitlin Copple of Full Swing PR – Podcast Transcript 

 

Lexie Smith 

Welcome to the pitching and sipping podcast, where we talk PR trends and tips over sips and meet a wide range of incredible founders, PR pros and members of the media. I’m Lexie Smith, a former workaholic VP of PR and marketing turned to time entrepreneur, founder of the PR ink business NPR coach, new mama and self proclaimed connoisseur of puns, pizza and wine. I’m a huge believer that knowledge is power and kindness never goes out of style. Think of the show as a way to uplevel your business and career over happy hour. Now let’s get to pitching and sipping. Caitlin Kapil is a strategic communications expert who helps women leaders be seen and sought after so they can reclaim their power and rewrite the human story. With more than a decade of experience. Her media placements have included Fast Company, Forbes, time, the New York Times and many others. In 2011 Caitlyn was the first openly LGBTQ person elected to the Missoula Montana City Council. She holds an MA in journalism from the University of Montana, and loves enjoying the outdoors with her young son. You already answered my first typical question on this podcast. But welcome officially to the pitching and sipping podcast. Where is home base today?

 

Caitlin Copple 

So today, I live in Boise, Idaho, which is actually where I’m from. So I was in Missoula, Montana for 11 years and then came back to raise my son closer to the grandmas who are very helpful in running a business. It turns out,

 

Lexie Smith 

I have my family’s up in Oregon. I’m in Southern California, and I am missing my mother. So so dearly. I have a almost one year old now. How old’s your son?

 

Caitlin Copple 

Oh, good for you. You’re in the thick of it minus six. And he’s in kindergarten. And it’s amazing. Public School is we have a really great neighborhood public school where he gets to learn Spanish every day. And it’s free, would you after you pay so much for childcare for so long? You kind of forget. Like eventually school is free. So see the light at the end of the tunnel?

 

Lexie Smith 

I have heard of that light. I look forward to that light for anyone listening who someday wants to have a family of any kind. I feel like we save for weddings in college, you need to start saving for childcare. Yeah. It’s a big expense. So what do you like to do outside of work with your son without your son and life? I’d love to just hear a little bit more about you.

 

Caitlin Copple 

Well, right now it’s actually snowing. And we do a lot of skiing here in Idaho. So we we love to ski together. He’s been skiing for four years. So basically since he was two, so he’s pretty good already. So student Hill out ski me, I’m sure. And we do a lot of backpacking in the summer and love to camp and hang out on the lakes and rivers of Idaho and Montana. And yeah, I would say other than that, I just got some roller skates. So I’m really into roller skating. And I wish that I was like better at tick tock because I would just make endless like Tic tock videos of myself trying new roller skating this.

 

Lexie Smith 

I don’t know what season or episode this is in. But somewhere on this show. I shared the fact that when I was in middle school, I led a roller skating camp for my neighborhood is it’s I was kicking myself for like 25 cents. So it is the kids. Yeah, something I would have done too, for sure. Yes. So I love that. Um, okay, so we’re gonna dive right in and talk and start with your career, which has been fascinating from what everyone just heard top of show. But let’s rewind it back and just give us kind of the cliff notes about what came before today.

 

Caitlin Copple 

Sure. So I think like a lot of PR professionals, I got my start as a journalist, which I think is a great way to cut your teeth in this sector. I edited my college newspaper and undergrad and did a bunch of freelancing and had a couple of journalism jobs before going to get a graduate degree in journalism. While at the University of Montana in in that grad program, I came out and started the first LGBTQ newspaper in Montana at the time with some friends. So that was fun. But I was really starting to get to a place where I felt like the kind of journalism I wanted to do was more aligned with that kind of activism I wanted to do and I also didn’t want to move around the country a whole bunch for some personal reasons. I really liked the mountains also. So it was just nice to be closer to family and build a career kind of in the Mountain West with visits to cities kind of as needed, as it’s turned out. So yeah, so then I decided I would start working in marketing and communications and was lucky enough to have one of those kind of dream jobs where you get to do a little bit of everything I lead communications for about a $2 million nonprofit. So they were considerably large. And they had three thrift stores that help support all of their staff overhead. And so I got to come up with campaigns and media buys for those thrift stores, and then also lead the marketing for programming around domestic violence and transitional housing, and that sort of thing.

 

Lexie Smith 

And somewhere along the way, you also got into politics.

 

Caitlin Copple 

Heck, yeah, yeah. I’ve always been, I think somebody who’s kind of motivated to make the world a better place and to seek justice. And while I was in Montana, I became involved with a lot of the local LGBTQ activism again, this was like 2007. So there’s a long time ago, marriage equality was not a thing. And we were working to pass a non discrimination ordinance that would prevent LGBTQ people from being fired or denied housing or public accommodation just because of who they are, who they love. And so in Missoula, we passed the first one in the entire state. And I did that as a volunteer, and my neighborhood or city council woman voted against it. And I was horrified. And so I thought someone should take her out. I really hoped it would be someone besides me, but no one filed and so on the last day to file I decided to throw my hat in the ring and became at age 27, a candidate for city council not really knowing what I was doing. But, you know, having a background in communications and fundraising and some activism, it wasn’t, it’s not a huge leap to jump into politics. And so I learned a lot and, and got a lot done while I was there.

 

Lexie Smith 

And we’re gonna that’s gonna come up, I think in a few things that we talked about today. But But first, all right, so this is your backstory, what is today look like? What are you doing in your career right now?

 

Caitlin Copple 

Oh, goodness, well, today, so I started full swing PR in 2019. And my business partner just sent me flowers today, because it’s our anniversary month of the business. So four years, February, very exciting. And we had our first seven figure year in 2022. So that was very exciting. So going from scratch from just me solopreneur, you know, doing well, but like very different than trying to actually build an agency, which is what we’ve now done. So we have about eight people, I think on our team plus a few contractors, and we need to hire like three more. So hit me up. Probably by the time this drops, we’ll still be hiring. And we’re growing. So we we definitely are on track to become an even bigger agency this year. And our wheelhouse really is around helping underrepresented leaders. So not just women, but also folks of color LGBTQ business owners. And our sweet spot is really working with business owners that are maybe at that two or $3 million mark, but really want to scale their business to 10 million as quickly as possible. And obviously investing in publicity and PR can really help you get there faster.

 

Lexie Smith 

You know that I send out a community newsletter roundup every Tuesday, chocked full of resources, free media kit, downloads, event invites, journalists, contacts, visibility opportunities. Basically, if you’re not on the list, hit pause and sign up. It’s super simple. Go to the PR bar inc.com/newsworthy. That link is in the show notes. Okay, back to the show. Wow, wow, wow, that 500 Things you just said first, congratulations. That’s huge. I mean, 2019 wasn’t even that long ago. So your, your agency well to have crossed the seven figure mark, but also doing so in a way where you’re mentioning your approach to who you’re representing is really inspirational. And that’s, that’s a topic I really want to dive in today. I can assume your y, but I don’t ever want to assume your y. So I did pull some language from your website that says our approach which is is rooted in authenticity and elevating women by POC and LGBTQ voices of business owners in the news media, so that they can build the platform they need. So I just love to hear how you came to that how you landed on that. Why?

 

Caitlin Copple 

Yeah, yeah, I mean, I think growing up as a queer closeted kid, in a suburb of Boise, Idaho, it was not the best. And I think I always have struggled to find role models in some ways, especially growing up. Finding people that look like you or you know, have some similar identities or life experiences, you can be really hard when you don’t fit kind of the model of what a CEO looks like, or what a politician looks like, or what a subject matter expert looks like. So what lights me up is really helping change that statistic that only 30% of sources quoted in the news media are women. And we all know most of those folks are white women, and they’re mostly straight women, etc, etc. So it’s really important, I think, to make sure that our media landscape reflects the democracy that we want to live in. So hopefully we can help folks who maybe have been historically or currently underrepresented, build the platform that they need to make big change in the world.

 

Lexie Smith 

So that statistic means that 30%, you just mentioned means that you’re working against. Yes. Right working against it. So I’d love to just hear high level, some best pieces, excuse me best pieces of advice or things people can do when they are effectively representing a marginalized or underrepresented group? How can they become not part of that lower statistic?

 

Caitlin Copple 

Yeah, so I think if you have a client as as we do, I mean, I’m not I’m not black, I’m not Latinx. I’m queer. That is one thing, but I’m still very much a white person. And I was raised in a state like Idaho, where, you know, growing up, I didn’t have really any black people in positions of authority in my community. So I think it’s really important to be aware of your own privilege and your own background, so that you can be aware of unconscious bias or where you might have kind of those, those areas where you’re just not as experienced where you don’t necessarily know people and then I think what PR folks are really good at especially because a lot of us used to be journalists is really immersing ourselves in stories that aren’t necessarily like our own. So figuring out like, what are the the identity specific or interests, specific media that are out there that you just might not have ever heard of, or consumed as maybe a white person or as a street person, and get to know some of those publications, podcasts, etc, and just are consuming that media and listening to those stories, I think that can help you broaden your lens, it’s certainly not a replacement for actually, you know, in my case, we try to hire folks who are from different identities so that we can better serve our clients. But I think if you’re a one person shop, you know, certainly immersing yourself in stories that are different from your own is a great way to start.

 

Lexie Smith 

You touch on a point that I’d love to bring to light and that’s if you aren’t someone who identifies or point blank is in a marginalized or underrepresented group. Does that mean you? This is opinion? Of course you can’t, or you shouldn’t represent another group that is marginalized or underrepresented? Do you need to look like or be like or identify, like, the clients you are representing?

 

Caitlin Copple 

I think it helps for sure. I mean, I think you know, it’s not lost on us as we’re assembling a team to service one of our 12 month retainer clients. Right now we’re working with a really great organization, that’s majority black women lead, a black woman started it, it’s very important to me that we are aware of what we have and don’t have in terms of our own lived experiences and expertise on our team. And then we set them up with a project manager that’s going to be more aware of the issues that they may have come up with in the in the course of growing there, it’s a nonprofit, in this case, to to be a really large player in their space. I think also, the other piece is just like consent to like, I don’t think we should ever assume as white people that like we are the chosen one to come in and save the day and to help this person tell their story. I think it’s really important to have an open dialogue with a client about what they want to say and what you know, what are their terms? Like? What what what is it that makes them want to work with you in the first place? Have they have they thought about this question? Like I have an open conversation about it for sure.

 

Lexie Smith 

At what point do you think it’s the right time to bridge that? Is it in the sales process before they even become your client? Is it during onboarding? When do you have those tough conversations? I say tough with air quotes.

 

Caitlin Copple 

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think most of the folks who find us like because it’s pretty front and center and our website, we have an anti racism standpoint, and we talk about the our own our own investments in di coaching for our staff and that sort of thing. I think people generally know that we are doing our best to be aspiring anti racist. And so it doesn’t always come up until something has closed but with the client had mentioned their newer retainer client and it’s it definitely comes up and and that’s something I think is important to keep. keep top of mind and keep talking about because I certainly as kind of the white person than the boss in the room, like I want to make sure there’s an open door to raise any concerns that they might have, if they don’t feel like we’re meeting their expectations, right? Because we want to do better and we want to be able to show up for them and reflect their brand and their voice in the pitching that we do and in the ghost writing that we’re doing that sort of thing.

 

Lexie Smith 

Do you for someone who’s maybe newer to this concept of anti racism? What would be the first place you’d suggest that they start to begin to acclimate to lay that foundation and educate themselves? on what they should do or can do or shouldn’t do and all the intricacies involved?

 

Caitlin Copple 

Definitely, well, there’s a lot of resources out there. I think in 2020, a lot of white people for the first time realized that racism is still a big problem. And there was kind of this, this pseudo white awakening, if you will, about, you know, this is racism is a real thing. And black people are dying at the hands of police. And we really need to do something about the systemic oppression of specifically black people in our society. And I think that’s led to a lot of really important conversations. I think it’s also important as white people that we understand that racism is not a new thing for the people who have been living it this whole time. And that is white people, it really is our responsibility to do what we can to dismantle it, and that these systems were set up to protect white supremacy. And so it needs to be I think, white people helping create new systems and dismantle the old ones that we benefit from whether we want to or not,

 

Lexie Smith 

what about the actual pitching process itself? So outside of client, or if you know, for my business owners listening to, if you yourself identify personally, someone in a marginalized or underrepresented group, and you’re pitching, let’s say, a white journalist or someone not in your group, is this something that you suggest is is highlighted is approached in any way? or what have you seen in that process?

 

Caitlin Copple 

Yeah, so I think sometimes it can be easier to build an authentic relationship with a journalist that does have some commonalities with you, whether that’s identity related or just interest related, certainly, like as I’m engaging with journalists on Twitter, I make it a practice to always try to be helpful, even if it’s not something that directly benefits me or a client. Like if I know the answer to a question that a journalist is asking, I’m gonna DM them and answer you know, or connect them with the right person, even if it doesn’t directly benefit me. I just think that’s being a good human, and will deliver good karma in your direction probably later. I think when I’ve worked on LGBTQ issues, or for nonprofits that are advocating for LGBTQ equality, it’s always been helpful that I have the background that I do when reaching out to journalists that cover LGBTQ politics, or who identify as LGBTQ, usually, they’re a little more interested in hearing what you have to say, because you have that common ground. I certainly will try to pitch journalists of color first, because I also know this, the stats around who makes decisions in newsrooms, and I think anytime you can help somebody from an underrepresented group to shine and to have a really good story or break the news first, I think that’s just great. I would love to be a part of that, you know, so it’s always fun to work with the young Latina journalist or the young, you know, African American journalist or whoever it might be. Because I think it’s fun to try to help other people shine as well.

 

Lexie Smith 

Yeah, I think thank you for sharing that. I love that perspective. And I think you’re really not just talking the talk, you’re you’re walking the walk in terms of actually doing more than just saying we should be anti racist, you’re looking at ways you can physically and actually make a difference. So I think that’s a really I just want for anyone listening, tap back a little bit and consider the points that she’s she’s made, is there a different contact, you could be reaching out? Can you become a source or a resource to an underrepresented group? That’s another way to help. If you’re looking for some way to help, we’re going to transition into a little bit of a different topic. But before I do, I know this is a huge, huge topic. And this is a short show. Is there any other points on this issue that you’d like to make before we kind of move over into? Yeah, I

 

Lexie Smith 

think there’s just two other things I would want to mention. One is that it really I think, benefits white people to try to learn from folks who are not white, right? So when you’re seeking out a vendor or a partner or a business coach, like try to expand your network, most white people 90% of our LinkedIn community is also white people. So it’s really important to build relationships with people who are not like you, that also will help you in your recruiting and building your staff team as well. Just to get a more diverse kind of applicant pool or candidate pool.

 

Caitlin Copple 

Yeah. Cosine not that you’re asking. Okay, so one other thing, you know, when you talked about in your application for the show, which your whole application was great, and I didn’t have to do any work because you you pitch the exam is like, perfect example of a good pitch. But you stated publicist and PR pros often miss out on quote, defining the win, which is something you learn the importance of while working in public affairs, both on the electoral side and the issue advocacy side. So let’s start by digging into that phrase a little bit more. Well, What do you mean by defining the win?

 

Caitlin Copple 

Yeah, so sometimes it’s really specific. And other times it’s not. And part of I think our job as publicists collectively, is to help the client to find the win. So one of the ways we do that is, we offer something called a PR accelerator. And it’s a six week sprint, where we work with folks to take a deep dive into their business help them uncover what’s truly newsworthy about it, we send out five pitches on their behalf during the engagement, and we do two guest columns for them during the engagement as well, and do some auditing of their social media profiles, website, etc. So as part of that, we are very much interested in helping them tell us what success looks like at the end of six weeks. So that might look like getting on one podcast, getting one top tier media placement, it might be just like having a better sense of what PR event is, and how they might pursue it in the future, to see if like we’re the right fit, or if they’re ready for an agency or, you know, that kind of thing. And so I think it’s really helpful at the beginning of any kind engagement to help them really identify, usually, most people have business goals, right? Because you got to you got to make the money to pay the people pay yourself and actually have a business. So what we try to get them to do is to figure out what are the communications goals that align with those business goals and are actually going to help you reach them faster. So like, for example, at full swing my company, we want to get to 25,000 subscribers to our email list this year, that is a huge jump from where we’re at right now. It takes a few different strategies to get there, like we have to invest in ads, I have to show up on podcasts like yours, and like invest in my own PR and make sure I’m making time to give interviews and write my own thought leadership pieces, that sort of thing. To get more people to know about us and sign up for our list.

 

Lexie Smith 

What do you think is a realistic win or goal for a business owner to have, let’s say in that first 60 day period of potentially working with either a firm or doing it themselves? Poster accelerator?

 

Caitlin Copple 

Yeah, I think it’s absolutely reasonable after four to six weeks to expect to get at least one placement. A lot of times business owners will come to us and of course, they want the big top tier national outlets, but they have a lot of good relationships locally that they’ve never really tapped. Like, I am shocked by the number of people that are like I had sent this happen twice. Like last week, one person knew the news director at her local NBC affiliate, and like had never talked to them about her job, you know, like what she does for a living. And she also had a really cool nonprofit on the side. So anyway, we talked about like, you know, perhaps you should take that person out for coffee and be like, is this a pitch you whatever, you know, entertain, what are you covering right now? Is this something that would be of interest to you. So don’t neglect your local outlets. I think a lot of times people want to shoot for the moon. And that’s great. But like, even with Good Morning, America, and today, a lot of times the way those get those stories get placed on those larger platform kinds of TV shows is because somebody at the local ABC or NBC affiliate, kicks it up the chain and pitches it on your behalf. So something to keep in mind for sure. I think the other thing that folks sometimes miss out on our guest articles, and oftentimes, so many publications, news outlets are just hungry for content, and they’re trying to feed the beast. And if you can help by providing valuable not self promotional content that actually adds value valuable insight to their viewers or listeners or readers, then that is kind of a win for both of you, you know, and I think people who are greener at doing PR feel better because they can control the message if they’re writing the guest

 

Caitlin Copple 

column. Totally kind of the flip side of that. The Okay, we are winning is when PR doesn’t work. And again, this is something I have conspired to bring up from your website. But I’d love to talk about some of the reasons or the whys behind maybe you aren’t seeing those wins.

 

Caitlin Copple 

I think the biggest reason PR doesn’t work is because people are not being consistent. They’re not being consistent if they’re doing it on their own. Even if it’s sending out like committing to sending out five pitches a month, or writing one guest column a month that you try to pitch locally to your business journal or regular newspaper. And if it doesn’t fly, put it up on your LinkedIn and send it out as an E newsletter. I don’t know what it is, but like figure out what those practices are that you can commit to monthly or quarterly or weekly, and just do them and it will pay off you will start to get wins if you really stick with it. I think the other big mistake that you know even larger companies make from time to time is that they just like send out a press release on the wire and think that that’s going to do the job. And that’s not ever going to work. So it’s probably a whole other episode. But I think this spray and pray Press Release approach is just, you know what I think a lot of folks who don’t have a lot of experience in marketing or PR think of as PR, but it’s really not the thing that’s going to move the needle for you.

 

Caitlin Copple 

The irony is that PR often has bad PR. And there’s a misconception about really what PR is, if you’re not in in the industry yourselves. What services on that note, do you offer at full swing? PR?

 

Caitlin Copple 

Yeah, so we mostly work with companies and nonprofits that are interested in a long term commitment. I think that’s what it takes to really see results over time and be able to tie those back to your business KPIs key performance indicators. So that’s kind of our sweet spot, I think, you know, when when a client works with us in that capacity, we handle not only their pitching media relations, any press releases, they might need to do ghost writing for the CEO. But we also manage up to three social media platforms, we do all of their email marketing for them, including the copywriting. So we take a ton off of their plate. And usually when folks hire us on retainer, they find they don’t even need a marketing person or marketing department. Again, most of our clients are between that two and $5 million mark trying to get to 10 million. And so they are at a place where to hire, you know, 120 $150,000, a year marketing director position where you get one person and they might specialize in one thing, and that one thing is not necessarily being a publicist. With us, they can kind of get it all and get a whole team of senior folks helping them

 

Caitlin Copple 

out. And where would be the best place to go to learn more about your agency and your services?

 

Caitlin Copple 

Oh, thank you. Yeah, our website is full swing pr.com. And we’re on Instagram at full swing PR. I’m on LinkedIn, and Twitter, even though it’s increasingly the cesspool of humanity, I start

 

Caitlin Copple 

by laughing because I so my PR account manager, Megan is, is begrudgingly getting a Twitter account right now because I’m making her because even though it’s terrible, I

 

Caitlin Copple 

make them I’ll get it to you. I know all my like, all my people have to get on Twitter. I’m like, you can just be a lurker, but you have to be

 

Caitlin Copple 

there. You have to be there and there’s so many so many opportunities and chatter. So in amongst all the garbage there’s some great opportunities. I tried

 

Caitlin Copple 

to join Mastodon but it’s just not the same.

 

Caitlin Copple 

Ironically, so is that still becoming a thing?

 

Caitlin Copple 

I know, I don’t know. I feel like everyone’s kind of just resigned themselves to doing Twitter on Elon terms.

 

Caitlin Copple 

It’s just getting it’s calming down. So yeah, um, the last question I have for you, which is always the most important on this show, is we’ve talked a lot about Pichon what can we find you sipping so what is your favorite thing? Gosh,

 

Caitlin Copple 

I’m totally boring right now I’m drinking water I have diet it’s really ugly. I’m kind of embarrassed to show you but it’s from Target and it tells you how much water you should drink for every time of day but it is I’ve I’ve drink enough water for noon but I shouldn’t be it’s two o’clock my time now. It’s actually 230 so I’m behind I need to do more sipping less chat and I guess I don’t know

 

Caitlin Copple 

why dogs are going onto YouTube and watching the show guys. You can see that I’m

 

Caitlin Copple 

really hideous water bottle. The only complaint I have is it doesn’t fit in like your car mug thing. But I feel like it’s an accountability partner. It is an accountability partner for water. That is true. But normally I like to drink whiskey or coffee. So you know, have a green juice. Whiskey or coffee. Not at the same time coffee in the morning whiskey evening.

 

Caitlin Copple 

Whiskey straight are in a cocktail.

 

Caitlin Copple 

I actually like it straight. I like Scotch a lot. I like bourbon. Yeah.

 

Caitlin Copple 

Any any brands or local distilleries you want to call?

 

Caitlin Copple 

Oh, that’s so good. We we actually worked with a distillery a while ago. I’m not a local and now let’s see. I mean, I still like Bert. Bullet right? A lot bourbon for the bourbon and I like Johnnie Walker black first got

 

Caitlin Copple 

there. I can’t say that I’m a personal connoisseur but I can say my father is Yeah. So funny story for another day is when the first time he met my now husband. He introduced him to his entire whiskey and bourbon collection in the course of about one hour. So my husband now does not remember that anything

 

Caitlin Copple 

while you still your husband. So that’s

 

Caitlin Copple 

we still three, nine years later so amazing. Well, it was thank you so much for coming on the show today and for being open and jumping around with me from some very serious topics and important topics to a little bit more need to knows I’m on a quest to redefine and educate the marketplace on what PR is and I think today’s Yeah, it’s very helpful in doing that.

 

Caitlin Copple 

Well thank you. I love your stuff. And I wish you all the best and thanks for having me on.

 

Lexie Smith 

Hey guys, if you are enjoying the pitching and sipping podcast please do me a huge favor and leave a review wherever you are listening. If you want to connect with me to learn more about the PR bar Inc. You can do so on Instagram at the PR bar underscore inc or you can check out my website at the PR bar inc.com Cheers